Ducor 212 vs HF 212 Predator (2024)

DynoDon said:

Performance cam spec head and aluminum flywheel

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what RPM is HP Peak and Tq peak on the ducor? I got numbers on my predators is there any hp difference between the two. is one better than the other on the dyno?

mike97760 said:

I dont think the Predator hemi with its flat top piston had any more compression than the dished piston non-hemi Predator.

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that would be hard to believe the hemi is at a huge disadvantage with the empty dome in the cylinder head. most hemi engines like triumph 650 have large domes on top of the pistons to fill the cavity the predators have noting. the ducor is dished making a low compression motor worse

J'-remy said:

Can anyone explain any desire to choose the ducor over theHF

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The fact that the Ducar 212 is built to DynoCams specs and the Harbor Freight Predator has already had 20+ different heads, and an exuberant amount of differences from one engine to the next with the predator, makes it a much better choice for people who have to tech them. It's not about performance, for me, but more about consistency and ease of monitoring the engine. We're going to run the Hobby Stock class with this engine this year because many people have been asking about bring back a box stock class. The Predator in the South has turned into a complete nightmare because no tracks have forced the issue of leaving them alone. They are paying $650+ for built predator engines down here. It's insane.

rebsfan4 said:

The fact that the Ducar 212 is built to DynoCams specs and the Harbor Freight Predator has already had 20+ different heads, and an exuberant amount of differences from one engine to the next with the predator, makes it a much better choice for people who have to tech them. It's not about performance, for me, but more about consistency and ease of monitoring the engine. We're going to run the Hobby Stock class with this engine this year because many people have been asking about bring back a box stock class. The Predator in the South has turned into a complete nightmare because no tracks have forced the issue of leaving them alone. They are paying $650+ for built predator engines down here. It's insane.

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well except the fact that dynocams has laid the groundwork in order to blueprint the engine. I have already been quoted $300 to measure everything deck the block hone the rod valve job reassemble measure again dyno runs etc etc. this is a price that includes ME breaking in the engine disassembling the parts and doing a lot of leg work. add the chain guard, throttle linkage, fuel pump gaskets, fuel pump plate and the initial cost of the motor you're still looking at a 650+ "hobby" engine that will only rise in cost as more and more racers cry about things like pipes jets etc etc its headed the way of the clone

Skidude said:

I think the solution to the Predator class, or hobby stock, is to stop the incentive for seasoned drivers to run the class. It’s my understanding that the class was developed for the entry level racer that just wants to get started and not have to spend a fortune. 100% payback and that’s it, no big money, no points. Let it be for the beginners to get their feet wet. Then, if they want to run for money or points, move up to clone or animal or whatever blueprinted class they want to run.

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100% payback is a problem too. around here the predator class is the biggest classes. 100% payback has experienced clone drivers entering the biggest classes to claim the money. why race 5 people in the clone class when you could potentially take the pot from 12 or more.

J'-remy said:

well except the fact that dynocams has laid the groundwork in order to blueprint the engine. I have already been quoted $300 to measure everything deck the block hone the rod valve job reassemble measure again dyno runs etc etc. this is a price that includes ME breaking in the engine disassembling the parts and doing a lot of leg work. add the chain guard, throttle linkage, fuel pump gaskets, fuel pump plate and the initial cost of the motor you're still looking at a 650+ "hobby" engine that will only rise in cost as more and more racers cry about things like pipes jets etc etc its headed the way of the clone

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See Also

Predator 212cc Performance Upgrades | Go Kart Guy

Regardless of what level people chose to take the engine, The pure box stock ground work is in place. Easy to tech based on specific numbers. Unlike the predator.

J'-remy said:

100% payback is a problem too. around here the predator class is the biggest classes. 100% payback has experienced clone drivers entering the biggest classes to claim the money. why race 5 people in the clone class when you could potentially take the pot from 12 or more.

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Sounds like people need to learn how to go faster.

rebsfan4 said:

Regardless of what level people chose to take the engine, The pure box stock ground work is in place. Easy to tech based on specific numbers. Unlike the predator.

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the clone and all of its measurements, by your definition, is easy to tech. The issue you raise is the rising costs of the Hobby Stock motors. You need to make up your mind do you want. easy to tech? or inexpensive motors? Seems to me your concern shifts between the two to address each issue. the clone motor is considered a 'Stock' motor as is the Flathead. both of which are priced in excess. My KSR Clone started out as a $200 Ducar too.

J'-remy said:

the clone and all of its measurements, by your definition, is easy to tech. The issue you raise is the rising costs of the Hobby Stock motors. You need to make up your mind do you want. easy to tech? or inexpensive motors? Seems to me your concern shifts between the two to address each issue. the clone motor is considered a 'Stock' motor as is the Flathead. both of which are priced in excess. My KSR Clone started out as a $200 Ducar too.

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The issue isn't the engine. The issue is 2 fold. 1. Track tech not calling things illegal when they're illegal. 2. The harbor freight predator engine, in its BOX STOCK form, has NEVER had a consistent set of OEM specs, to call a standard. The original clones never did either. Why? Because they were a Harbor Freight knock off of a Honda, built in multiple facilities by anyone who can stand on an assembly line for hours, reach into a ben and pull out any one of a mixed batch of parts and bolt it in place. Again, no matter what stages the Dyno ducar may end up being built, the simple fact is, there will ALWAYS be an original out of the box set of specs to tech by. This engine can morph into a three stage build if it wants. And most likely will. But there will still be the original, oem out of the box specs. The only way that can change will by Dynos hand. Nothing about the clone, by any since of my "definition", as you call it has any sort of comparison here. It would have if it had come with a standard set of specs straight out of the box. It didn't. As for the ease of teching, when you can go by a standard set of numbers versus having to have a ridiculousamount of "known parts" on hand just to make a judgement call, I'll take the standard set of numbers every time. It's the fairest thing for the competitor. Is there still a comparison to a known stock part? Yep. But at least it's going to be a known part built by one company, in one facility and to one standard.. Anyways, yall have fun complaint about something you have no control over. It's here. It's staying. It's up to tracks and tech to do the right thing now. I'll do my part.

J'-remy said:

when Lewis Stout received the first motor from Dynocams it originally had a flat top piston. So this motor has had a few changes as well. Stout manufactures several of the tools to tech these motors they currently do not have a spring tester for the Ducar 212 as they are different than the clone in both length and tension nor do they have the pin gauges for the jets. Just because this engine has a brand name it is still a Chinese clone subject to the same bins and parts as the HF Predators as evidence from me pulling one apart.
Sorry if I miss read your posts but as i read it you were concerned about $650 predators. tech and specs will see them reach 1400. as they did the clone which started life as a claimer class
I suspect more than anything it has been a lack of the racer calling out the cheating by buying these $800 investments for $170. A repeat of the clones claimer origins.
Reading other threads you will see the clone is being cheated on a regular basis as well
My preference would be for a sealed engine classes and tech unfortunately this has not caught on in the dirt track world. the number of engine platforms is a problem for me and the Ducor 212 is just one more being thrown into the mix along with the 224 predator. everyone's HF 212 is about to become a boat anchor... the cheated ones too.

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Actually I do have a spring tester for the Ducar. All it takes is a 4.2 add on weight because the che k is #15 @ .850. Larry jones made me one. They are available for all tech personal to purchase. The springs Check too. You're welcome. As for the seals. I've told everyone at our track, as well as surrounding tracks, I would buy a bar code scanning seal system and we'd lock em up. If we continue to look for excuses, we'll spend less time focusing on what we can do. Y'all can keep complaining. I'll keep working on things from my end, to give the racers a economic class that they want. And I'll enforce the rules as they pertain to "box stock" by the simple guidelines Dynao has written. If people want to stage out the engine and have different levels of builds, I don't really care. So long as there's always a "box stock" standard, we'll always be able to have enforceable speched rules

J'-remy said:

I see why you like tech. Do you build motors too?

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No. Used to help build me engines back in the flathead days. Have zero desire to build an engine now.